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Thread: Modded DSM quirks, what does yours suffer from?

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    Default Modded DSM quirks, what does yours suffer from?

    Almost every modded DSM has a quirk.

    Something that's tolerated in the belief that it has to be that way because of the mods.

    In reality, it's not always true or there's another way to achieve the same performance level without the side effect.

    So, here is an opportunity gain insight and demonstrate your DSM problem determination/resolution skills.

    If the car is stock and has a quirk, remain silent and go RTFM.

    If your car has a quirk feel free to post it but make sure you give all of the relevant information up front.

    If you have a real solution offer it up. A real solution is one that WORKS, not one you think will work.

    Stay on topic!

    Hal

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    I got one, anyone here wanna help me to figure out how to get E98 to start at temps in 45 degrees and below. I have tried increasing and decreasing latency at low battery voltages (cranking), changing timing numbers at cranking rpm, raised and lowered coolant temp based enrichement. More fuel seemed to help some but at very cold temperatures starting fluid seems to be the only trick. I had just assumed its the nature of the beast with the fuel and not having 16:1 compression. And moving to Florida isn't gonna happen.

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    John how many times a year is it below 50 degrees in north carolina, like 4 ?
    Starting fluid is your friend.
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    Haha, I can just borrow your starting fluid we needed to start your car every morning you where here .

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    I haven't found much for Dsmlink. I never really had a problem with cold start on E85 when I was on link. The only thing on there to adjusts is the coolant temp fuel adjustment. What settings have you tried?

    I saved this page from evom for aem users. I know it's based off of Evo maps but it gives you an Idea of where to start adjusting settings.

    http://forums.evolutionm.net/aem-ems...libration.html
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    On E85 I have not had issues starting that I couldn't tune out, E98 is when it happened.

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    John, are you using projected tip plugs (BPR*) as opposed to non projected tip (BR*)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Wigger View Post
    On E85 I have not had issues starting that I couldn't tune out, E98 is when it happened.
    John,

    I have starting problems with E85 and haven't been able to fix it. I just have to crank the engine for 10+ seconds and it finally starts. What did you do to get it to fire right up with a cold engine? By cold I mean summer, winter, but the engine had not been running for 4+ hours.

    It sounds like it is good I have not tried E98!
    Terry,
    91 AWD

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    I wonder what OEM manufacturers use to fix cold stars with flex fuel vehicles.

    Interesting paper from a Kettering University Professor here. Uses hydrogen injection to improve cold starts, hardly applicable here but still interesting.
    http://www.michigan.gov/documents/CI...62_87914_7.pdf

    I wonder if an upstream injector would provide similar results. The problem is that the fuel isn't atomizing properly at lower temps.
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    My DSM(s) attract Unisured Drivers!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevan Bates View Post
    The problem is that the fuel isn't atomizing properly at lower temps.
    My car never held pressure in the fuel rail, it always bleeds down within an hour.

    To get my car to cold start on e85, I learned to put the key in the ignition, bump the starter to get the fuel pump to kick on and charge the fuel rail to operating pressure.

    Once fuel pressure is up to max, then give the key a real crank.

    If I don't pre-pressurize the fuel system, the car really struggles on a cold start situation.
    If I follow my cold-start proceedure, it will start on the first or second try every time.

    Max pressure in the rail = better atomization = quicker starts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Wood View Post


    My car never held pressure in the fuel rail, it always bleeds down within an hour.

    To get my car to cold start on e85, I learned to put the key in the ignition, bump the starter to get the fuel pump to kick on and charge the fuel rail to operating pressure.
    Why the bump of the starter? Fuel pump should energize with the key in the ON position, no need for the extra wear.
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    Fuel pump doesn't run until the ecu gets a signal from the CAS

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    Shit, oh yea, sorry... Don't know what I was thinking.
    lithium
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hal View Post
    Fuel pump doesn't run until the ecu gets a signal from the CAS
    If it is an ECMLink car you can force the fuel pump to energize when the key is switched on. There is a check box on the Misc. Settings screen to energize the fuel pump. If you leave it checked, the pump will start when the key rotates into the 'on' position

    John-
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    If it's AEM it primes when the key goes to on for a second or so, and you can add a prime timer to cranking before fire as well. We used to use inline radiator heaters in Minnesota during the winter to help out. It was a heating element that was plumbed into the lower radiator hose and then you just plug your car in over night. Nothing quite like coming out in winter and starting the car right up to a warm heater. Of course then you found out you left your parking brake on and it froze.

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    I always have problems in the 40-50* range for cold start but I never have problems when it is really cold down to the teens on e85. The car doesnt run right for about 60seconds after startup though below 50 or so. I just start and let my car warm up on the turbo timer everyday before I drive anywhere.

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    The only things that bother me about my car, are the hard starts with E85, locked center diff, and getting harassed by cops 50% of the time I leave my driveway. Other than that, it's a blast to drive, even just cruising I couldn't be happier with the way it rides and drives.
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    I've got a weird-ass problem that's driving me crazy.

    In higher gears (4th-5th) if I do a part-throttle acceleration (like merging onto a freeway) the car will start vibrating and shaking. The sound is exactly like driving over rumble strips on the side of the road - the first time it happened, I thought I had. It is very violent, so I've never stayed in it to see if it goes away or not.

    It is neither speed nor RPM dependant as far as I can tell, although it doesn't seem to happen at slower speeds and lower gears.

    I've replaced the BOV with a better one (it started happening shortly after I installed a cheap Greddy RS copy) and changed out the driveshaft, but no joy.

    I know there is a leak at the EGR pipe (one of the bolt holes is stripped) and I suspect there might be a wonky injector. I suppose one of those might be the root cause... but I don't know.

    DG
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    Quote Originally Posted by DG View Post
    I've got a weird-ass problem that's driving me crazy.

    In higher gears (4th-5th) if I do a part-throttle acceleration (like merging onto a freeway) the car will start vibrating and shaking. The sound is exactly like driving over rumble strips on the side of the road - the first time it happened, I thought I had. It is very violent, so I've never stayed in it to see if it goes away or not.
    I have the same issue and my friend had it and axles were to blame. I bought axles from Curt a while ago and never changed them to see if it would fix the problem.

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    Cold starting is something I have become very experienced with. I have pretty much figured out how to cold start any car from any temp even when it gets down to - 40 C over here. I changed a lot of spark plugs in the freezing cold. But give me your car for 3 days in the winter and It'll start and drive like stock when cold. The trick which you sometimes dont have enough control over is the primer map.
    DG your problem could be that driveshaft we put in binding up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave K View Post
    The only things that bother me about my car, are the hard starts with E85, locked center diff, and getting harassed by cops 50% of the time I leave my driveway. Other than that, it's a blast to drive, even just cruising I couldn't be happier with the way it rides and drives.
    I pretty much decided to never put a locked center diff in anything ever again. I even put an open diff inside the drag car!
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    E85 cold starts for me, definitely. I was thinking to try a bottle warmer on the surge tank and shut off the lift pump
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    Andrew, when do you start the race car in cold weather

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hal View Post
    John, are you using projected tip plugs (BPR*) as opposed to non projected tip (BR*)?

    I tried non-projected once. Car was 10x harder to cold start on E85. That was a ECMlink car. Most of the time I don't have any problems getting an ECMlink car to fire right up in the cold on E85. It's the AEM cars that are a pain in the ass. Having proper injectors, or properly driven injectors, helps big time with start up as well. If you have huge injectors that aren't the new style high z stuff, the easytune box helps a lot.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jake Lehmkuhl View Post
    Andrew, when do you start the race car in cold weather
    November is our big race. We'll start a race at 0600 and if the car was on the trailer the fuel will be a good 38-40 degrees out there in the desert.
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    DG your problem could be that driveshaft we put in binding up.
    I don't think so. It did it before the new shaft, it did it exactly the same way after the new shaft. And it only happens is a very specific set of circumstances.

    We'll go for a ride so you can hear it.

    DG
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    Back when it ran some year+ ago, my car had a weird habit of randomly shutting off after driving around for a while. It would happen, but not always, after about 45 minutes or more of driving. I'd be cruising along, everything normal, then everything would die momentarily (ignition, fuel, lights, everything) then come back on like nothing happened. Sometimes it would die and not come back on until I pulled over and let it sit for a minute. Sometimes disconnecting/reconnecting the battery helped.

    Many years previous I had a similar problem and it turned out to be the ECU power relay (or "MPI power relay"). My understanding at the time is that it takes a long time for those to fail. I replaced it and the problem went away. I figured I wouldn't need to replace it again for another 15 years. When the car runs again I will replace it again and hope it solves the problem. Beyond that I'm out of ideas outside of a random grounding issue. I never managed to be datalogging at the time of the issue in order to catch it in the act.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam West View Post
    I always have problems in the 40-50* range for cold start but I never have problems when it is really cold down to the teens on e85. The car doesnt run right for about 60seconds after startup though below 50 or so. I just start and let my car warm up on the turbo timer everyday before I drive anywhere.
    If it starts easy when cold but has a bog on tip in accel, most ecu's have a modifier table (I don't remember seeing it on the Link tho) It means you need more accel fuel when cold, but your primer map is fine.
    If it needs pumping of the accelerator to start when cold, You are artificially adding more fuel with accel pump, therefore it needs more primer map pulsewidth.
    If it needs a slight bit of throttle to start when cold or warm you need LESS base start injection time/pulsewidth (You are artificially adding more air by opening the throttle, therefore the mixture was too rich to start)
    If it starts on the key, no throttle then you are fine, make no adjustments to the base start time.
    If your ECU does not have a base start Injection time map, you can either get around it with cold start mapping and run overly rich on start, or combine that with modifications to the areas below 500 rpm at atmospheric pressure

    It really takes a trained ear to 'hear' if a motor is rich or lean when idling without a wideband (most aren't warmed up in those first few seconds). Most people cant even tellif a car is running on 3 cyl's.
    RPM surging is usually an indication of too lean, its hard to tell by ear if its too rich unless your in the bottom 10's.
    Accel inputs should be perfectly crisp like on a stock car, the AEM has the most modifiers to tailor this to (almost) perfection, but they can also confuse the shit out of you.
    Also wrong Latency's for injectors, and wrong deadtime inputs, will murder throttle response.
    Get a real injector too like the new siemens or ID series. You wont be pulling your hair out and you wont need fancy add on boxes, and they are worth the price of admission for the low speed driveability and ease of tuning.

    Keep a few sets of cheap clean plugs on hand for starting, if you have a flooder, make one change at a time, do a small crank don't start the engine and check the plugs for evidence of fuel. You should be able to see fuel on the tips even from the first crank, this means too much prime map or too much coolant map.

    Plugs should always be dry, except when super cold, if they have a slight glaze on them and smell of fuel they are flooded, don't reuse them as they will fuck with you and your ability to judge the cold start.

    In my experience, most Alcohol cars, don't have enough fuel on startup, Alcohol is a bitch to get to vaporize when colder. All those tips will help you

    Anybody can tune WOT, it takes a real artist to make it run like a stock car, or better.

    My beater DSM with Haltech E6S (From the early 90's) and 1000cc injectors starts on the key in - 20C and is ready to drive immediately, no bogs or stumbles. Too bad my DOS laptop died, and I can't do any more fine tuning, because I'm sure I can make it run even better.
    Last edited by Marco; 2011-04-17 at 17:11:59.
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    A nice, strong inductive ignition (with a long duration spark) helps a bunch. Mitsu OEM ECU's have their highest dwell times at low/idle speeds by default. When the injector fires during cranking can have as much influence as prime does. Experiment.
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    Unfortunately my older motec M48 doesnt have all the features of the newer hundred series stuff so I could only do so much. The trick I learned so far was to crank it for a few seconds let it sit and then give it a go again that really shortened the cranking time.
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    Last time I checked the ECUFlash Roms for my EVO didnt have access to any of these maps and the DSMLink also didnt have access on v2.5. I think the Tephra V7 has some cold start stuff in there so I will look into that. I was working on a V7 rom since it can do SD and ECU boost control. I have standard PTE 1200cc injectors and I think they are dialed in pretty well since my car runs great once it is slightly warm. I think it needs more fuel to start. When I had the ARC2 CDI with Montero coils and BR8ES plugs I had a bitch of a time starting in the cold and misfires all over the place. I use stock ignition with BPR7ES plugs and it is MUCH improved.

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    ECMLink V3, has tip in adjust and cold start fueling but not tip in for cold start only.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam West View Post
    Last time I checked the ECUFlash Roms for my EVO didnt have access to any of these maps and the DSMLink also didnt have access on v2.5. I think the Tephra V7 has some cold start stuff in there so I will look into that. I was working on a V7 rom since it can do SD and ECU boost control. I have standard PTE 1200cc injectors and I think they are dialed in pretty well since my car runs great once it is slightly warm. I think it needs more fuel to start. When I had the ARC2 CDI with Montero coils and BR8ES plugs I had a bitch of a time starting in the cold and misfires all over the place. I use stock ignition with BPR7ES plugs and it is MUCH improved.
    Misfires, and popping and crunching? That describes a fouled plug. From your description it sounds like BR8 plug may have been your problem, they foul way too easy, projected tip and a range of a t least 7 is need for succesful winter starts below - 10C you may be a little off on the cold start tune and just foul too quickly with the 8's
    Last edited by Marco; 2011-04-18 at 09:14:18.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artie Effem View Post
    A nice, strong inductive ignition (with a long duration spark) helps a bunch. Mitsu OEM ECU's have their highest dwell times at low/idle speeds by default. When the injector fires during cranking can have as much influence as prime does. Experiment.
    I have an ARC-2, and if I am remembering correctly it is supposed to have a multi spark setting. Does anyone know what that setting is?
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    RTFM. It tells you what it is.

    Multisparking a CDI produces several sparks, each high intensity, but it isn't as good for low/idle speeds as inductive. An inductive spark might last for a few mS, where a CDI will spark approx once a mS(for a fraction of a mS), several times in a row. The rate at which a CDI multisparks is dependent on a few things, but most are around a mS. The ARC-2 is a little faster, because I felt that a faster restrike rate was more important at idle/low RPM, than trying to get the highest spark energy numbers.

    At low loads and RPM, the big issue is whether or not there is something in the spark gap to burn. An inductive spark has a lot longer total spark duration, so you have better odds of something being there. And since it is a single continuous spark instead of a whole bunch of them spaced apart, the ignition timing is going to probably be better too.

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    So far we have had excellent cold starts on e85 and ls1/ls2 coils on some local cars using megasquirt 2 and megasquirt 3. Just takes a bit of playing to get the cold start part of the map setup but once you do its like butter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam West View Post
    I have standard PTE 1200cc injectors and I think they are dialed in pretty well since my car runs great once it is slightly warm. I think it needs more fuel to start. When I had the ARC2 CDI with Montero coils and BR8ES plugs I had a bitch of a time starting in the cold and misfires all over the place. I use stock ignition with BPR7ES plugs and it is MUCH improved.
    I vaguely recall us talking about this before. How well do those PTE injectors atomize compared to the OEM stuff? At idle/start, poor atomization is definitely going to make it harder on a CDI. It'll light anything off, but with bigger droplets, you are less likely to have something in the gap for that brief spark. The inductive stuff is definitely going to be more tolerant of that sort of problem.

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    I wonder when I get the manifold back if switching to the 1000s as primaries will help instead of 2150s.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Wigger View Post
    I wonder when I get the manifold back if switching to the 1000s as primaries will help instead of 2150s.
    It depends, how your ecu handles cold starts, proportionally (percentage) or time based (pulsewidth) What works for one injector does not work for another. Ie Larger injectors will spew more fuel on prime and cold start if it is time based, same for percentage, where in reality you will need less fuel to start it. AEM would rescale this when you rescaled the injector. Also pay attention to how much voltage you have under cranking, some injectors barely work at 9 volts. Latency calibration is a big plus here, a linear injector will work much better. Poor atomization is a part of it as well. You can see a good atomizing injector Like the ID1000 require more fuel on the cold start when switching from an old style injector. The technology is available and affordable, everybody should use it.
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    Best results I have had so far was increasing latency at cranking voltages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    I pretty much decided to never put a locked center diff in anything ever again. I even put an open diff inside the drag car!
    I'd like to hear your thoughts on locked center diffs. I take it you run at least a 4 spider diff with the stock viscous lsd in your drag car?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad S. View Post
    I vaguely recall us talking about this before. How well do those PTE injectors atomize compared to the OEM stuff? At idle/start, poor atomization is definitely going to make it harder on a CDI. It'll light anything off, but with bigger droplets, you are less likely to have something in the gap for that brief spark. The inductive stuff is definitely going to be more tolerant of that sort of problem.
    To be truthfull I do not know how well they atomize. My car runs like a champ in all other situations. I know also at the same times I had the ARC2 I had stock, denso 720cc, FIC 1050cc and finally PTE 1200cc injectors and the misfires in the winter and hard starts were impossible to get rid of and the misfires even occured in the summer and I eventually figured out it was the BR8 plugs like marco suggested. I had removed the ARC2 and sent it back for a look over and it was replaced with a v2 prior to going back to Stock ignition and 7's and still had the issue. At that time since they replaced the CDI with no explaination I figured it had an issue and seemed to have the same issue on the second one so I sold it. I am fine where I am now but I would like a slightly smoother idle with a wider plug gap so I may buy a Spoolinup COP from matt so I have a strong inductive ignition.

    Brad, what do you think of the HK$ Twin Power that has both a cdi and an inductive spark?

  43. #43
    Italian Sausage
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luke Capitano View Post
    I'd like to hear your thoughts on locked center diffs. I take it you run at least a 4 spider diff with the stock viscous lsd in your drag car?
    Yup, I made a 4 spider for the dogbox, because I wanted to have less windup on the T case. I had a spool previously. Breaks less and pushes around the shop alot easier. I fucking must be getting old
    Magnus Social Club and Espresso Bar ◘

  44. #44
    Hank Hill
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam West View Post
    At that time since they replaced the CDI with no explaination I figured it had an issue and seemed to have the same issue on the second one so I sold it.

    Brad, what do you think of the HK$ Twin Power that has both a cdi and an inductive spark?
    The first one may not have had any issues then. That misfire is more likely to be a problem with the combustion, than with the spark itself. The spark happens, just very briefly like it is designed to do. It's definitely a tradeoff with the CDI.

    The concept of the HK$ Twin Power isn't a bad idea at all. I saw patents a few years ago on how to overlay the 2 different types of circuits to achieve this. The CDI gives you a rapid rise time on the voltage at the coil(less firing delay), potentially more voltage, and more initial spark current. Then the inductive allows the spark to have a good duration. If it could be done well, it seems to be the best of both methods.

    I recall there being issues with those Twin Powers though, I just don't remember what it is now.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam West View Post

    Brad, what do you think of the HK$ Twin Power that has both a cdi and an inductive spark?
    I run the HKS box, for the exact reasons being discussed. My alternator belt slipped on my 10.0 pass and my voltage dropped to 9-10v and the car ran flawless at 35 PSI on E85. To me that says it's working pretty good. I am also running stock coils with NGK wires, BPR9EIX plugs.
    -Dave
    1990 AWD - 10.0@138mph, 3200 lb land yacht - weekend moneypit
    1991 AWD - daily moneypit
    1989 Dodge Colt GT - MPG mobile

  46. #46
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    ^ Iridium! I finally listened to Shep and threw in a set of Iridium plugs.

    Ya know there is a reason they change winter blend E85 over to E70. So the real fix here is to add gas to your E98 & it'll start. [/end smart ass remark]
    aka Hop

    '09 BMW 335i Xdrive <- Daily Driver
    '06 Nissan Pathfinder <- Tow bitch
    '92 3000GT VR4 <- SOLD
    '91 GVR4 #1587 <- SOLD
    '97 GS-t Spyder <- SOLD
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    '95 TSi AWD, GT35R 10 second corn juice sippin' street car.
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  47. #47
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    The NGK iridiums are recommended over the normal copper plugs that most of us have been using for years?
    1993 Tsi FWD 11.53 @ 126.10

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Wigger View Post
    I got one, anyone here wanna help me to figure out how to get E98 to start at temps in 45 degrees and below. I have tried increasing and decreasing latency at low battery voltages (cranking), changing timing numbers at cranking rpm, raised and lowered coolant temp based enrichement. More fuel seemed to help some but at very cold temperatures starting fluid seems to be the only trick. I had just assumed its the nature of the beast with the fuel and not having 16:1 compression. And moving to Florida isn't gonna happen.
    If you are not already running this stuff, give it a try. I've seen it improve atomization with methanol without negatively affecting performance. Worth a try anyway. You should probably run something like it anyway with such a high ethanol fuel.

    http://www.klotzlube.com/techsheet.asp?ID=51
    -Charlie

  49. #49
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    A few of the local guys are running Pennzoil 2 stroke oil as an E85 lube. Certainly can't hurt.
    Impressive Quotes Here

  50. #50
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    I run Redline alcohol lube in mine. Not really for atomization or anything of the sort but rather for the fuel system. Doesn't seem to affect the tune in the slightest and I figure it cannot hurt for the longevity of the fuel pumps.

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