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Thread: Spool Device

  1. #101
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    Because my EGT's are high enough to make you run to your mother and hide under her skirt for fear they might cause a thermonuclear implosion of the multiverse as we know it.

    Between the two of us we'll see it go through its paces and since everything internal is stainless the ALS and 2Step (which both of us use as well) shouldn't affect it overly much given its thickness. We will put it through many heat cycles and duty cycles. Something a drag racer would only be able to do after a hundred runs we can accomplish in one weekend at the road course.

  2. #102
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    I'd like to see this thing survive a 22 session road race weekend.
    -Brian Wilson

  3. #103
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    You don't want much do you Not many cars out there will enjoy that.

  4. #104
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    hahaha.

    The internals are very beefy.

    It's survived the anti-lag and various 2-steps on my car without issue.

    Once you get into 7psi-10psi of the boost range it's back to normal operation so the "harshest" of all explosions happening in there (lets say anti-lag at 30psi of boost) doesn't really hurt it at all. It's been designed to withstand the heat and pressure of high horsepower cars.

    I'm not saying it will last forever, but if you're anti-lagging your car an entire race season, it would probably last longer than your turbo. And guys that do this usually refresh their turbos at the end of each season. I would suggest at least an inspection of the gate and possibly an overhaul which wouldn't be expensive at all since all the machining is already done. You would just replace the gate essentially.
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  5. #105
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    I know an exhaust valve can be done (look at the Supra sequential turbo valve for example) but I think what brian is suggesting is that it needs to hold up to those truly extreme abuses like 20 minute track sessions over and over. Not just expected to or tested in some other circumstances that seem pretty rough but thoroughly tested and known to survive them. Its not the expense of replacing the valve its that your winning the series your next session is up in 15 minutes and your turbo valve failed. That's whats in play for a hardcore track whore car like that.
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  6. #106
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    Well, I am ready to try it on my DD that needs boost support in the lower RPMs.
    I am thinking of a divided t3 with a .84 A/R.
    DD project: 1998 Eclipse auto AWD, SFP tubular manifold, 50 trim, .63 exhaust. Greddy IC, piping, exhaust, DSMLink, E85 and tuning..

  7. #107
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    That thing is going to spool like crazy.
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  8. #108
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    I have a question in regards to how the actuator closes the block off. I understand how this works, but does the actuator pull the 'block off' all at once or is it a gradual thing?

    The way I see it, once you have full boost, the block off retracts, allowing the motor to breath to it's limits, thus rapidly increasing the amount of exhaust it can expel, which increases the amount of air it can ingest, and subsequently increasing the reponsiveness of the motor and alleviating back pressure in the intake system. Right?

    Would this cause the boost to dip down before climbing back to the top? When I was tuning a friend's Honda, his VTec was coming in during the spool up (around 10 psi), causing the car to noticeably lag back, as the cam profiles would switch allowing more air to enter the motor and reducing the build up of pressure in the intake system. I dialed back the engagement/switch over point until it was 'closer' to the full boost and the problem went away.

    Would this system do something similar with a actuator arm?
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  9. #109
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    This will result in a dip if you cut if off too soon, just like if you set the high cam to come in at too low an RPM. You'll have to test and check until you have a smooth transition. With the type of actuator he's using the crossover will be very fast. I would not consider it gradual by any means, but it doesn't have to be to have a smooth crossover.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattDameon View Post
    I have a question in regards to how the actuator closes the block off. I understand how this works, but does the actuator pull the 'block off' all at once or is it a gradual thing?

    The way I see it, once you have full boost, the block off retracts, allowing the motor to breath to it's limits, thus rapidly increasing the amount of exhaust it can expel, which increases the amount of air it can ingest, and subsequently increasing the reponsiveness of the motor and alleviating back pressure in the intake system. Right?

    Would this cause the boost to dip down before climbing back to the top? When I was tuning a friend's Honda, his VTec was coming in during the spool up (around 10 psi), causing the car to noticeably lag back, as the cam profiles would switch allowing more air to enter the motor and reducing the build up of pressure in the intake system. I dialed back the engagement/switch over point until it was 'closer' to the full boost and the problem went away.

    Would this system do something similar with a actuator arm?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike McGinnis View Post
    This will result in a dip if you cut if off too soon, just like if you set the high cam to come in at too low an RPM. You'll have to test and check until you have a smooth transition. With the type of actuator he's using the crossover will be very fast. I would not consider it gradual by any means, but it doesn't have to be to have a smooth crossover.
    Correct on both accounts. Just like anything else on your car you have to tune it if you have this issue. I have yet to see it because in most cases once the turbo hits a certain boost number, it's on it's way to being fully spooled and there is no way stopping it.

    On my car the actuator closes at 7-9psi and I see no dip, no loss of power, no loss of boost. It just keeps spooling.

    The gate does not shut instantly though, and different boost levels will cause it to close certain amounts. This is how all wastegates work. At right around their specified spring setting they start to move and open/close a few psi later. On this setup it starts to "open" at ~7psi and is fully open at 9psi. So if your car somehow would sit at 8psi, the gate would not fully "open" and continue to push most of the gas down one scroll of the turbo.

    With the summer in Ohio finally starting to peek it's head out I'm closer to getting dyno numbers. I upgraded my boost solenoid to a 4 port (which by the way kicks ass, but is a pain to tune) and have pushed the setup to 36+ psi now. Once I can actually get fuel (e85 doesn't come out until april 12th up here) I will be taking it to the dyno when I can get it in there.
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  11. #111
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    Just wanted to let everyone know I've started getting a few of them here and should have them done in a few weeks.

    These are from single turbo 3000Gt's and should provide decent results for you guys to take a look at.

    I will hopefully have dyno numbers sometime soon as well once I get my car re-tuned with the new cams and e100 fuel.

    I also will have a version with all Inconel internals for those who want a higher temperature threshold. I'm still running 304L in my personal car with no problems and almost 40psi of boost.
    http://automotive.miragecorp.com
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  12. #112
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    It's nice to see the weather finally getting nice, isn't it Chris?

    Mother Nature sure has been a teasing little bitch though these past few weeks!
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  13. #113
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    Getting there, storming the next few days.

    Got my personal car re-tuned since I put in some bigger cams and cam gears, trying to figure out a time to dyno my own car with the device.
    http://automotive.miragecorp.com
    1999 3000GT GT42'd - http://3si.picturealbums.org/v/shiver-91vr4/

  14. #114
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    Nothing in 2 months? Any NABR members have this running? I'm in the throws of deciding on a DD / track days combo manifold/turbo setup and the allure of 1k earlier spool on a GT35r turbo is compelling.

    Can someone send me the pictures? My placement constraints are a bit odd and I want to make sure the actuator will clear the other nearby hardware.
    Cogito ergo sum

  15. #115
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    No one has got one on NABR yet, a few 3000gt guys are getting them, but no one has results yet.

    I'm still the only one with it and have been driving my car around and it still is working great after 3+ years. I'm still working on getting to the dyno but my work schedule is hard to get around.

    If you PM me your email I can send you some pics. If you have any shots of your engine bay I can help figure out if it would fit. There are different positions we can move the actuator to try and make some room as well.

    Thanks,

    Chris
    http://automotive.miragecorp.com
    1999 3000GT GT42'd - http://3si.picturealbums.org/v/shiver-91vr4/

  16. #116
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    Any new developments? I am definately interested in this product.

  17. #117
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    I ran into issues with finding machinists that could fit me in when needed. So I bought a CNC mill and currently I am getting it setup to start producing these as quickly as possible.
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  18. #118
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    CNC is now up and running and churning out parts.

    I'm waiting on a part to mount the solenoid and then I will post up some pictures. Definitely some improvements in sealing and how the device works. I'll see if I can post up some cad pics.
    http://automotive.miragecorp.com
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  19. #119
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    Here are some pictures of the models. I will post up the first production piece later today...it came out perfectly!






    There's now a sealing surface when it goes back to "OFF" mode to hold the gate properly in place for those who were worried about it flopping around.
    http://automotive.miragecorp.com
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  20. #120
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    Here are some final production pictures of the device all ready to go.

    The actuator can be positioned in basically an infinite amount of positions to account for your turbo location.

    The turbo in this picture has large bolt reliefs in the throat of the turbo and the gate had to be cut to compensate for the reliefs.




    The standard model uses 304L stainless internals and the pro version uses Nickel 600 alloy (Inconel) for longer life and higher temperature resistance.

    PM me for pricing on both models and for availability. All I need is your turbine housing and I provide the rest. It will be shipped back to you in a bolt-on configuration.

    Everything is in full production and I am able to crank these out in about a week from the time I receive the turbine housing if the turbo is one of the sizes I have CNC programmed already. It will take a bit longer if I have to write a custom program for it.
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  21. #121
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    If this is in public tech is it viewable by anyone? If so, you might want to remove thse "nabr eyes only" pics.
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  22. #122
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    Good call, removed the ones I wanted to keep close tabs on.
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  23. #123
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    This looks like a true piece of art you've created here. I'm hoping to hear back from some people on this product with good, well-written reviews. I've been meaning to step up my regular 6776s to the billet 6765 setup. I wonder what a device like this would do to a t4 .68 housing, in terms of spool.

  24. #124
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    It should shift your power curve quite a bit to the left.

    I have the first production piece out to the customer already and he just got base dyno runs on his non modified housing (he has two housings). He is currently bolting up the turbo and hopefully getting numbers sometime this/next week.

    I will post up the review once he writes one It should be good as his current turbine housing is a small one and the modified housing is a larger housing. So we will get a good idea of how it does when stepping up a housing size.
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  25. #125
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    What are his housing sizes? I'd think with a larger housing he'd also make more peak hp, depending on how "restrictive" the smaller housing was.

  26. #126
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    We're not trying to peak it out, it made about 600awhp on conservative boost.

    We're mainly looking for power under the curve improvement (aka spooling and making power sooner).

    The max power with a bigger turbine can be a bit bigger but it will slow the spool down a bit. So worst case we will spool a bit slower than if he had modified his smaller housing.

    Depending on how this one spools up, he may also modify the smaller housing.
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  27. #127
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    I was going to say, it would be a good showing of what this device can do if it was used as a before and after on the SAME housing. Controlled, no variables.

  28. #128
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    Definitely, in this case though I couldn't

    It's the same housing brand/etc just a different a/r.

    So it's going to show in the favor of slower spooling and not inflate the numbers.

    So if it still shows a gain of 700RPM on a larger housing, it will only be bigger on the same housing.
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  29. #129
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    Took my car to the dyno as the guy who has the prototype has been having some head gasket issues.

    Initial results show an increase of about 100 AWTQ at only 20psi!

    Spool was definitely increased and so was power. I need to get the dyno charts all setup and compared to get the final numbers, but for a low boost run, the results are pretty impressive.

    This is also on the very first protype unit which isn't as efficient as the newer units.

    I will post up the dyno charts and comparison once I get everything formatted and into excel charts etc. I was going to do some higher boost runs but didn't have the time, so those will have to hpoefully wait until my other tester gets his head gasket issues fixed.
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  30. #130
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    Dyno runs were made back to back with the same housing/turbo/tune/etc. Nothing was changed other than letting the car cool down for a few minutes to ensure both runs were under the same conditions.
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  31. #131
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    That is awesome. How many rpm faster did the turbo spool up? I would imagine for 100wtq gain it is pretty significant.

  32. #132
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    I didn't have enough time to even get the car tuned in as there was a car that was 3 hrs late into my dyno time, so these are just some initial results I saw on mine. Still hoping to get the other guys results sometime soon once his head gasket issues are fixed.

    There is extra torque the whole way up and a pretty wide band of 100+ awtq increase. In my mind there should be a good bit more if I had this with the newer CNC design I have in production now.

    The squigglies down low was a bit of a rough spot that happened during both pulls, never got time to fully tune it out. I'm sure there would be even more power if I had time to actually tune the timing in.

    This is on a 3000GT 3.0L V6 GT4202 turbo 20psi:
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  33. #133
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    Wow that is really cool. So basically this unit just restricts the exhaust till a certain point where boost/vacuum is present?

    I am sorry if I missed the description of how it works...

  34. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDear View Post
    Wow that is really cool. So basically this unit just restricts the exhaust till a certain point where boost/vacuum is present?

    I am sorry if I missed the description of how it works...
    It uses a twin scroll turbine housing of which each turbine scroll has a a/r of half the total a/r, this device blocks one of the channels until boost is reached, effectively lowering the turbine a/r. After the gate opens then both turbine channels are open, just like if there were no gate present. So basically it acts like a turbo with a smaller turbine housing until boost is reached then acts like the same turbo with a larger turbine housing. If you have any idea of how a turbo works, a lower a/r reduces spool and transient boost response, larger a/r gives more power but reduces spool and response (of course depending on the displacement of the engine, power of the exhaust gases, etc.). Please read through the thread before asking questions that haven't been asked already.
    Last edited by Kevan Bates; 2009-11-04 at 19:51:14.
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  35. #135
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    I did read, I was just trying to get it in a nutshell. Sorry, but thanks for putting it into that nutshell that I wanted
    Jared Dear
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  36. #136
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    Are those results on the same size housing or is this the one where the spool device is on the larger housing? It appears to have spooled only 250rpm faster in that dyno. Correct me if I am wrong but that is not very significant if it is on the same size housing. If it is on a larger housing then it is promising but for 250 rpm only I wouldnt bother.

  37. #137
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    That was on my personal car with a prototype made 3 years ago, same turbo.

    This one specifically was pushing the gasses down the wrong volute and the newer versions have that corrected. This effectively reduces the efficiency of the turbine as the gasses do not have as much time to work on the turbine surfaces.

    And because of time constraints on the dyno I didn't even have time to tune the car, so I was having some spark/fuel issues. I'm hoping to have results from the guy with the actual first production prototype soon, as he has his car back together now.
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  38. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam West View Post
    Are those results on the same size housing or is this the one where the spool device is on the larger housing? It appears to have spooled only 250rpm faster in that dyno. Correct me if I am wrong but that is not very significant if it is on the same size housing. If it is on a larger housing then it is promising but for 250 rpm only I wouldnt bother.
    The other nice thing is it does seem to build an extra 1-2psi of boost along the whole curve down low as well. So you do gain an extra 100ft/lb of torque in the mid RPM range, but you also gain 20ft/lbs (at least on this chart) in the lower RPM range.

    The thing that is unknown and I'm going to try and figure out is how does it help smaller/larger housings? SP did their test on a GT45 which is quite a large frame turbo and they saw ~400rpm increase in spool.

    I'm wondering if there are diminishing returns by going to smaller and smaller housings. EX: using the device on a 1.25 a/r housing will net 700rpm spool gain as relative to not using it, and on a .90 a/r housing you would only get 400rpm? It's something I'm definitely looking into.

    We did see a good bit of extra area under the curve going from .9 a/r to 1.25 a/r in the mid range. The .9a/r housing definitely was choking the exhaust a bit up top.
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  39. #139
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    Well, the guy that was testing the spool device blew his motor at the track, looks like he may have pushed a rear main seal out and leaked all of the oil out before spinning one or more rod bearings.

    I'm looking for another one or two guys to test out some production units if anyone is interested. I would hope they were in a warmer climate than myself and would be able to test it here before the winter really hits.

    If anyone is interested let me know and I can see what we can workout.

    I can do a quick turnaround on the T4 twin scroll as I already have it programmed and would just have to make small modifications.

    Thanks,

    Chris
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    1999 3000GT GT42'd - http://3si.picturealbums.org/v/shiver-91vr4/

  40. #140
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    I may have a guy interested in one of these units... It's a friend of mine that runs Fast Track Performance, his name is Anthony Peck. He has some sort of spool valve on his TA right now "not sure the brand or where he got it etc" on a pretty large BW turbo. When it works it works GREAT and increases his spool time by about 1000RPM but he has had A LOT of issues out of it sticking and not opening etc.

    Get with me on this and i can relay the message and see if he would be interested.

  41. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blevins View Post
    I may have a guy interested in one of these units... It's a friend of mine that runs Fast Track Performance, his name is Anthony Peck. He has some sort of spool valve on his TA right now "not sure the brand or where he got it etc" on a pretty large BW turbo. When it works it works GREAT and increases his spool time by about 1000RPM but he has had A LOT of issues out of it sticking and not opening etc.

    Get with me on this and i can relay the message and see if he would be interested.
    PM sent
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  42. #142
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    Thumbs up

    As mentioned earlier, Mazda attempted the 'flapper' adjustable A/R turbine housing years ago, and Honda/Acura has one in production now:

    http://www.hondanews.com/categories/764/releases/3560

    As well as Porsche being one of the only gasoline turbocharged engines with a variable vane turbocharger in production.

    I applaud ChrisD for applying this to the aftermarket. Should get a SEMA award or something.
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    hahah, just need some testers now, my car is in the garage for the winter...although we seem to be having a very mild winter so far.
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    Chris, maybe I missed it before, but what a/r are you using on that 4202? Have you tested different housings on it before? like, 1.01 to a 1.15/1.28 or something? I'm curious as I've heard that a larger housing a/r can actually help spool, but everything in my mind is telling me no. Any way to put this to rest? I'm also curious about the different sizings vs. rpm spoolup with your device. I'd think yes, a smaller housing is restrictive up top, and a larger housing helps, and I can see that your device could spool a larger housing turbo faster then before (700 rpms I think you said) vs. the smaller housing with the device. Would this be due to overall flow rates, similar to that of different compressor covers, or flow ratings of the turbos themselves?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony Swift View Post
    Chris, maybe I missed it before, but what a/r are you using on that 4202? Have you tested different housings on it before? like, 1.01 to a 1.15/1.28 or something? I'm curious as I've heard that a larger housing a/r can actually help spool, but everything in my mind is telling me no. Any way to put this to rest? I'm also curious about the different sizings vs. rpm spoolup with your device. I'd think yes, a smaller housing is restrictive up top, and a larger housing helps, and I can see that your device could spool a larger housing turbo faster then before (700 rpms I think you said) vs. the smaller housing with the device. Would this be due to overall flow rates, similar to that of different compressor covers, or flow ratings of the turbos themselves?
    I'm using a 1.15 housing on my turbo.

    The guy I also had testing the device used a .90 a/r housing without the device to compare to his dyno charts of a 1.20 a/r with the device (off) so he could see if he gained any power up top.

    The spool was negligible between the .90 and 1.20, maybe 100 rpms or so, but he did gain a good bit of power up top where the turbo was still spooling. We never had a chance to analyze it before the engine blew, but this follows with the idea of a larger housing is less restrictive.

    You can definitely spool a large housing with the device before a small housing without the device and have the gains up top (this is what it's meant for). So you can run a 1.15 housing and have it spool faster than a .90 a/r would ever spool (in fact, faster than a smaller frame turbo even) and still have the power up top.
    http://automotive.miragecorp.com
    1999 3000GT GT42'd - http://3si.picturealbums.org/v/shiver-91vr4/

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    So, from this information, is it safe to conclude that a larger housing doesn't realy hurt a turbo like most would think, but it's rather the weight of the wheel that determines spool-times? Just curious. You can PM me if you'd rather not discuss it here. Sorry to clutter your thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony Swift View Post
    So, from this information, is it safe to conclude that a larger housing doesn't realy hurt a turbo like most would think, but it's rather the weight of the wheel that determines spool-times? Just curious. You can PM me if you'd rather not discuss it here. Sorry to clutter your thread.
    No, it definitely changes the spool times.

    If you use my device (pictured above) though, you can make a larger turbine spool faster than a smaller turbine.
    http://automotive.miragecorp.com
    1999 3000GT GT42'd - http://3si.picturealbums.org/v/shiver-91vr4/

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    What is the distance from the center divider to the top of the flange? In other words, how much material do you remove from the divider?

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    A good bit, it's all done with some math so the mechanical advantage of the moment arm is enough to overcome the forces imparted by the gasses. Too big and you may not be able to open the gate with high pressure on it.
    http://automotive.miragecorp.com
    1999 3000GT GT42'd - http://3si.picturealbums.org/v/shiver-91vr4/

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    So has anyone used one of your devices on a 4 cylinder? I would think that the gains would be more pronounced with a larger turbo on a smaller motor, because with the v6 with every rpm increase you are flowing progressively more air than a 4 cylinder would in an apples to apples comparison (based on displacement). Or to put it another way your area under the spoolup curve would take longer so your gains would be accentuated.

    I am working on building up my 2g for next year (god willing) and have a gt42-76 with a 1.15a/r and this sounds like it would work well with my set up.

    I was planning on just using the old standard of nitrous to get things going but this looks promising as well. Maybe we could work some sort of deal out or something;-) I had to try.

    I also had been wondering why someone has not thought of this sooner. VGT/VNT is not new by any means.

    Lastly had you considered trying this on a really large turbine housing? Basically using more of the device and less wastegate; more like a true VGT? I guess the limiting factor would be that you could only half the a/r with this set up. Still as you scale it up you should see more of a benefit, correct?

    Either way this is a great idea.

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